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Post by Debby on Nov 27, 2004 6:23:28 GMT -5
Hi: Almost 3 months ago I allowed myself to get veneers & 3/4 porcelain crowns for cosmetic reasons only. I wasn't told up front about the horrible reduction of my teeth (14 on top). I stupidly assumed that a little preparation would be done and I would be fitted with a veneer the size of a contact lens on the front of my teeth. Because my dentist was trained at LVI, he used the wraparound veneers. Luckily, he did a nice job, but my teeth really look fake. Nice, but fake. Also, some sensivity on one back molar, and a little problem with a premolar. I think both might now need a root canal in the future, but I'm not ready to go back there yet. Aside from the pain (I lived on Advil - 2 every 6 hours for a month) the biggest problem was my speech. I was totally unprepared and horrified to realize, that the dentist couldn't help me. He assured me for 2 weeks while I was in the temporaries that the permanents would be much thinner and my speech problem would be resolved, but it wasn't. I now am self conscious; with my natural teeth I was confident and full of life. I'm not so much now. I'm very guarded and quieter. I practice certain sounds and am hopeful that my speech will improve. I must say it has, but it's been very difficult. Saying "255 South State Street" is hard, as is "55" "Griffiths" and like sounds. Fluency and spontaneity in conversation, which I used to take for granted, is now something I would like to have back desperatley, but I know removing the veneers and redoing them might be impossible. I think these dentists, trained to ACHIEVE EXTREME SUCCESS at LVI do so by compromising their ethics for the almighty $ and should be regulated more closely. Thank you
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Post by letsconnect on Nov 27, 2004 7:17:49 GMT -5
Hi Debbie,
I just had a post removed from another board for "dentist bashing". Actually, it was a quote by a dentist (who, as far as I can see, espoused a minority opinion), but obviously this was judged to be offensive. I would concur that "cosmetic dentistry", but more specifically the recent trend in the US towards "extreme makeovers", can mean that ethics go out of the window. With some dentists, it's all about making dollars - nothing else counts. And a very small minority do have a laugh at how gullible their patients are and take advantage of the fact that an extreme makeover smile is viewed as an accessory which will magically transform its owner into a more successful, admired, attractive person. On the other hand, lots of cosmetic dentists are genuinely happy about being able to transform their patients' smiles, especially where they felt self-conscious before. I've said it before and I'll say it again - cosmetic dentistry can be a godsend, and I refuse to be labelled a "dentist-basher".
What I do disapprove of is encouraging people to have cosmetic dentistry WITHOUT EXPLAINING THE POTENTIAL RISKS INVOLVED. Which seems to have happened in your case - not being informed about how much tooth structure would actually be removed, perhaps not alerting you to potential complications, etc. IMO, there needs to be legislation that ensures patients are informed about risks for various cosmetic procedures. For example, State Dental Boards could produce standard forms explaining the risks of such procedures which have to be handed to the patient and read out and discussed prior to making a treatment choice.
I'm so sorry to hear about the problems you're experiencing with your speech. You've probably been reading the same posts I've been reading (and following them much more closely than I have) - so this will be old hat to you: it seems that reducing veneer length may improve speech - have you looked into this to see whether this is possible in your case? Have you tried speech therapy to see if an improvement can be achieved that way? It really bugs me when people have bad experiences, and I hope you'll be able to find a way out of your problems soon. Please feel free to continue posting here!
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Post by bt4grace on Nov 29, 2004 5:33:25 GMT -5
I too have had 9 uppers done by a highly trained LVI CD. I was NOT told about the severe reduction of my teeth and after I paid I feel like I was treated badly. I feel like it was a wham, bam, thank you mam job and when I started having a lot of problems, I was told a bunch of malarky and he tried to "patch" things up here and there instead of actually fixing them. I have lost trust in him and am seeing another dentist. I had one crown just fall off!!!! When I called him about this and requested my money back, he told me it was due to my bite being off! After the veneer job all he wanted was another 4500.00 to fix my bite problem which I didn't have to start with. To make a long story short, I have had one root canal already and am facing another one or two immediately. Two crowns are shot and my supposedly unstainable porcelain teeth are yellow and gray. He says he will refund my money but to my new dentist!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I told him I didn't pay my new dentist, I paid HIM and I want my money back. Now due to all the pain and suffering, I am thinking on a malpractice suit. Any suggestions?
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Post by letsconnect on Nov 29, 2004 10:27:45 GMT -5
Hi there - I don't know enough about the US legal system to give any advice, but there was a long thread on usenet (sci.med.dentistry) recently entitled: Dental malpractice (UK) - Some questions - mostly legal As far as I can remember, the resulting discussion (mostly by US dentists) would be quite informative if you're considering taking legal action, also in a US context. How to find this thread: go to groups.google.com/ > type in "dental malpractice UK some questions" > the first result is the thread I'm referring to. Click on "View Thread (93 articles)" rather than the heading. From memory, it makes for interesting reading. Has anyone actually come across a cosmetic dentistry site which lists potential drawbacks of certain cosmetic procedures? I don't think I've come across a single one The mind boggles . Is this the same for elective plastic surgery procedures, or is there a requirement to highlight potential risks and complications? It's not really my scene, so I dunno
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Post by Debby on Nov 29, 2004 20:29:55 GMT -5
Thank you for your very quick reply to my post and also for letting me vent my frustrations. I found this website through another website that deletes anything negative and truthful about porcelain veneers. Unfortunately, I used that website for alot of my decision making before I got my veneers, without realizing that in some cases cosmetic dentists see $$$$ when you walk through their door and their staff is trained to be enthusiastic, and put on a GREAT PUSH for you to go through with the procedure. Like the other post said, wham, bam, thank you mam. I believe they are trained that way. I think the dentists even copy their website. I will go back to him when I'm ready. I feel that it is too soon. I want to be sure before I let him make permanent adjustments to my teeth. It's not that I don't trust him, it's that I fear the change might be worse. My biggest problem is my speech, then the fakeness, in that order. Yes, I did pay him ALOT of money and aside from what I think is his unethical practice of shaving perfectly healthy teeth into nubs without presenting any alternative, I believe he knows what he is doing. I am sure he will address the sensitivity and to tell you the truth, I'll deal with that later. I can avoid the pain by not eating extremely hot or cold stuff. He did not say that he couldn't do anything for me yet, I am purposely waiting to see how much my speech improves before contacting him again. What if he shortens my teeth and my speech doesn't improve, what if he makes adjustments for aesthetics, and I don't like it?? I now know that there is no "RE DOING". I compromised my teeth and I'm going to be very careful before letting him work on my teeth cosmetically again. I'm scared. Thank you, Debby
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Post by letsconnect on Nov 30, 2004 10:31:35 GMT -5
Hi Debby - I believe you posted this before posting in the "dentistry questions" section. Everyone's welcome to "let off steam" here. There was a thread on a dentistry message board recently entitled " "Selling" veneers ", and I did find some of the stuff in that thread disturbing and unethical. It wasn't all that blatant, but still. Your suspicion that staff are trained to put on a great push to go through with the procedure is correct. And yes, many cosmetic dentistry office websites are copied (wasn't in that thread, but I've seen the same website with different names and addresses, and perhaps a different colour scheme, so many times I've lost count). The argument is often made that cosmetic dentistry is driven by consumer demand. Fair point, but if the demand is there, why the pushy sales spiel?
But anyway - what's done is done, and in your own case, even though you're not 100% happy with the results (yet?), "hopeful"'s posts suggest to me that there is a light at the end of the tunnel - and I wish you the best of luck in getting this sorted out! Please feel free to continue posting here!
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Post by Hopeful on Nov 30, 2004 14:38:35 GMT -5
Dentists SHOULD be required to illustrate amount of tooth reduction BEFORE such a procedure. Seems very few do. I was only aware AFTER, and certainly wanted all images of my work every step of the way.
I was banned from another board, with sponsoring dentists for broaching this subject - it turned into a ridiculous fiasco when I was only standing by my beliefs: every patient should be fully informed FIRST. How else can we make an informed decision? ... Instead of a skimmed-over statement and the perception of, 'veneers require little reduction'. The truth is, SOME do...And some require RADICAL preperation.
Such is life. My convictions stand. It's within the realm of simple ethics and patient's rights to know the exact amount of reduction their case will require. WITH visual aides if patient requests.
There's an interesting debate on DT about this very subject. It shouldn't be a debate at all. (M.O.)
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Post by Hopeful on Nov 30, 2004 21:26:13 GMT -5
..for allowing polite freedom of speech and respect for individual opinions.... a refreshing alternative to heavily censored forums. As far as controversial subjects, lively debates/differing opinions keep us on our toes. They enlighten to other views.. which are all valuable. And frankly, it's nice to know I'm not skating on thin ice with every word that leaps from thyne lips That being said, I know this forum is in its infancy, though will have excellent contributions. Thank you.. Keep up the good work. Now, here's hoping for some of those lively threads... May have to start some! ? ?
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Post by letsconnect on Nov 30, 2004 22:06:38 GMT -5
Feel free to do so! Only reason I had to delete that one thread (which BTW was really interesting) was that names were mentioned... mostly by myself though ;D - and I don't want to enter slander territory... I want this to be a positive forum for discussion, but without restricting freedom of speech - and watching other forums, I reckon the way to go is to allow people to speak their minds and delete or modify posts whenever necessary (where freedom of speech might get in the way of future opportunities, basically). So - if anything gets "censored", please don't feel bad about it - it's only done to protect people, not because I disagree with it
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Post by letsconnect on Dec 1, 2004 7:46:42 GMT -5
Anyone else see this one in the city: "I was just thinking, aren't all patients who want cosmetic dentistry, mentally sick. Isn't it an ego reinforcement desire? They will spend all that money for supervised destruction of their teeth and the chance to do it all over again in 5-12 years. How insane is that. I don't see great numbers of dentists standing in line for veneers or cosmetic dentistry."
If that's sick, then how sick is the extreme makeover sales spiel?
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Post by Sue on Dec 9, 2004 15:10:46 GMT -5
Dear Debby and all
As a bit of a background, I had probably not been to a dentist for about 15 years because of my extreme phobia. And I mean extreme. I did a lot of research - talked to my friend's husband who is a dentist and also to an "aesthetic dentist" (my co-worker has a daughter-in-law who works for him). Part of the anxiety is not knowing information and not having information.
This aesthetic dentist has helped me immensely. It has cost some cash - but he has answered every single question, explained every single procedure, and treated me with kindness and respect.
He is a graduate of a major Catholic dental school and of LVI. I guess I am worried about your portrayal of the folks who are from LVI because I don't think every dentist is the same. I believe he is one of the most ethical and competent dentists I have ever met. You have to be an intelligent consumer too - you get what you pay for and if you are paying - you deserve every consideration. I'm sorry your work did not go as well as you wanted it to.
I have learned so much from this dentist - about oral hygiene, etc - and he has also helped to correct my bite (I wore a plastic retainer for 3 months before he did any work - I haven't had a headache or a nighttime teeth grinding since I started this whole thing back in June). I too had some speech issues at the beginning of wearing this retainer - but he was very patient and explained that all would be ok - and it was.
I was just in yesterday - he is essentially having to redo everything as my mouth was a mess. I have new crowns on the left and new crowns on the lower right. The upper right did not fit correctly and he said (and I quote) - we want this to be perfect so you can chew again so we are sending them back.
Now I know this will take a little longer - but at least he didn't put them on and say - oops - that is too bad.
I guess we all have different expectations and experiences with dentists. I don't think we should make rash generalizations about where people have gone to school. This only makes the anxiety more real for others who may also be suffering. When I read your emails initially - it just increased my anxiety. Then I thought about how different my experience was and I'm thankful I am taking care of things now because I know my work will last for the next 20 years. Just as with any "service" you have to be careful and research and ask the right questions.
That is why I decided to write - maybe to ease the pain of others. I have gone from "how can I afford this" to "its all my fault" to now learning how to be healthier. I am still phobic but my dentist has helped me through that. He even called today (as he does after every appointment) to see how I was.
Sue
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Post by Debby on Dec 14, 2004 21:15:25 GMT -5
Sue: My portrayal of the "folks" is accurate and polite. These dentists are providing more than a "service" to PATIENTS, not customers. No further explaination on that point should be necessary. Google "porcelain veneers." Mostly ALL are web sites of CDs all over the USA (very similar in content) showing beautiful smiles, white teeth & alot of video & music. There was no adverse information that I found when doing my research. To encourage and knowingly take someone's priceless, healthy enamel and grind the teeth to nubs is unethical, and I agree with the above post. I wonder how many dentists have this done to them, or their family members for cosmetic reasons only? I can't imagine how they live with themselves. Of course, I do believe that people need cosmetic dentistry for very necessary reasons, therefore, a course on "Acheiving Extreme Sucess" does not or should not target them, if they have any morals at all. My experience has made me aware of the ever growing deceptive practices of a formerly trusted profession. I'm thankful that I am pain free, cosmetically acceptable and finally normal speaking. I now realize it could have been much worse.
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Post by letsconnect on Dec 15, 2004 11:34:13 GMT -5
Debby, great to hear your speech is back to normal ! That's great news! Regarding LVIers - sure, you can't tarnish them all with the same brush, but from what I've observed, LVI is more than cosmetic dentistry - it's a mindset and an ideology. As with all ideologies, its strict adeherents perceive it to be the only correct one. Obviously, I'm not saying that everyone who does LVI courses automatically buys into the system stock, lock and barrel, but some of them definitely appear to have been brain-washed. I'd love to see the introductory sessions (maybe there's some sort of initiation rite:P ?) to figure out what's going on... Anyways, I thought I'd share my thoughts on the motivations behind the extreme makeover trend. $$$ (obviously). But: the money-making aspect is only part of the equation. I found the following quote by a dentist about dentists on a dentistry message board: "we're doctors, artists, mechanics and sometimes counselors". Nicely put, very true, and a good statement to consider in the context of cosmetic dentistry: 1) "we're artists" - cosmetic dentistry, esp. of the extreme makeover variety, takes this statement to new levels. Quite a lot of dentists who specialize in cosmetic dentistry actually view themselves as artists - and they appear to enjoy the aura of glamour this transfers upon them. JMO. 2) "we're mechanics" - the crafts aspect is hugely important when it comes to dentistry. The same way some kids prefer lego to meccano and vice versa (this is not meant in a derogatory way, but simply as an analogy), dentists have different preferences when it comes to the type of dentistry they do and the tools they use. Hence you have general dentists, endodontists, periodontists, oral surgeons, orthodontists, implant specialists, and, of course, cosmetic dentists. A lot of dentists simply perceive cosmetic dentistry (such as doing veneers) as more fun than doing, say, a root canal. I'd say that the "meccano factor" is the single biggest motivator for cosmetic dentistry apart from dosh. 3) The problem is that the $$$ and meccano factors can get in the way of "we're doctors" 4) "we're counsellors" - an interesting point when it comes to dental phobia, but this discussion is about cosmetic dentistry... Interestingly, I've come across dentists who've chosen concentrate on big cosmetic cases precisely because, by their own admission, they lack the people skills necessary for general dentistry (the typical comment is "I don't have the charisma or personality to pull it off"). Having to meet fewer people suits them perfectly. Also, I would guess that the average person choosing a "cosmetic dentist" is less "difficult" than the average patient in many ways (though probably more demanding). Another factor is time. Extreme makeover-style dentists only do maybe 3 people a day - a lot more relaxing. With all these advantages, it is perhaps not surprising that the "we're doctors" bit can fall by the wayside. Finally, dentists are ordinary human beings (no, really ), and may be just as influenced by media portrayals of perfection as the rest of society. [For anyone new to this discussion, this is quite US-specific. LVI = Las Vegas Institute for Advanced Dental Studies - a postgraduate cosmetic dentistry training place. Please note that much of the discussion above refers to "wraparound veneers" or 3/4 crowns, rather than "ordinary" veneers, which require less removal of tooth structure, although the amount can still be significant. We're also talking about instances where this was done for purely cosmetic reasons, not because there was any real need. Just thought I'd mention this to avoid undue worries!]
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Post by Debby on Dec 18, 2004 12:35:43 GMT -5
Hi: Thank you for the above post. It makes alot of sense to me and very well explained. I think the training makes dentists think of themselves a an "artist." I don't think they thought of themselves as an artist while in school. My speech can pass for normal because I use great effort in speaking clearly. Some sounds are still not 100% but it is as normal as I can get it right now. I am seeing my dentist soon and will continue to do so until I have more satisfaction. After reading some other posts, I'm a little more optimistic that I can work this out with my dentist. It will just take time and who knows how many visits? Thanks Debby
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Post by letsconnect on Dec 18, 2004 20:37:52 GMT -5
My post was pure speculation, based on what I think may be going on (though I may be totally off the mark, wouldn't be the first time ). Still, idle speculation can be a lot of fun... I really hope you'll be able to work something out with your dentist, in the not-too-distant future! You've paid for this, so demanding a result that's satisfactory to you is perfectly reasonable, as any dentist would tell you . Best of luck, and let us know how it goes!
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Post by friend on Feb 16, 2005 21:27:34 GMT -5
Thank you for this thread. I did not know that so many others required root canal therapy and experienced bite problems following cosmetic procedures. I thought this was a rare occurence.
I thought I was an exception. I needed two root canals due to abcess following cosmetic crown procedure.
Am I susceptible to needing further work in the furture on the other teeth?
Thank you.
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Post by letsconnect on Feb 17, 2005 16:56:45 GMT -5
I don't think it's THAT common an occurrence, it's more a case of people who experience problems being more likely to post than those who are happy with the results... The fact remains that some dentists are hard-selling cosmetic procedures for personal gain, and willing to sacrifice their patients' well-being (or so I've been told). Is it a case of "buyer beware"? Perhaps, but there really ought to be more safeguards in place, e. g. making it compulsary to explain potential problems/risks associated with various cosmetic procedures. Don't know about your question, you can repost it in "Your Dentistry Questions Answered" if you like .
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Post by sharon on Feb 18, 2005 15:18:24 GMT -5
I had 6 veneers put on last April...I was in severe pain for almost 2 months and had to live on advil and pain medicine to sleep at night, this was awful too...I just found out yesterday that 5 will need root canals. They have never been comfortable. They look great, but will they ever feel normal? Now I'm afraid they won't last. And naturally there is more cost to me. I had no idea there were any risks at all. These 6 front lower teeth have never bothered me. My dentist recommended them to match an upper bridge he was installing. I'm sick with the news.
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Post by Sandy on Feb 19, 2005 14:45:46 GMT -5
Hi: Almost 3 months ago I allowed myself to get veneers & 3/4 porcelain crowns for cosmetic reasons only. I wasn't told up front about the horrible reduction of my teeth (14 on top). I stupidly assumed that a little preparation would be done and I would be fitted with a veneer the size of a contact lens on the front of my teeth. Because my dentist was trained at LVI, he used the wraparound veneers. Luckily, he did a nice job, but my teeth really look fake. Nice, but fake. Also, some sensivity on one back molar, and a little problem with a premolar. I think both might now need a root canal in the future, but I'm not ready to go back there yet. Aside from the pain (I lived on Advil - 2 every 6 hours for a month) the biggest problem was my speech. I was totally unprepared and horrified to realize, that the dentist couldn't help me. He assured me for 2 weeks while I was in the temporaries that the permanents would be much thinner and my speech problem would be resolved, but it wasn't. I now am self conscious; with my natural teeth I was confident and full of life. I'm not so much now. I'm very guarded and quieter. I practice certain sounds and am hopeful that my speech will improve. I must say it has, but it's been very difficult. Saying "255 South State Street" is hard, as is "55" "Griffiths" and like sounds. Fluency and spontaneity in conversation, which I used to take for granted, is now something I would like to have back desperatley, but I know removing the veneers and redoing them might be impossible. I think these dentists, trained to ACHIEVE EXTREME SUCCESS at LVI do so by compromising their ethics for the almighty $ and should be regulated more closely. Thank you Debbie, Thank you for telling yhur story. I have been faced with the decision of getting porcelain veneers for years for my teeth that are permanently stained by tetracyline. I went to a dentist approx. 100 miles from my home, and I noticed that a lot of pts that he treated had a small speech problem. I asked him about it, and he told me there was no difference. Also, I have wondered if the dentist from LVI are miracle workers, but I guess with all of this you take a risk. I wish you the very best. I had a chin implant for cosmetic reasons years back, and I could not say some of the same sounds that you are having problems with. Over time it completely went away. I hope that happens in your case.
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Post by letsconnect on Feb 19, 2005 15:14:54 GMT -5
I have been faced with the decision of getting porcelain veneers for years for my teeth that are permanently stained by tetracyline. Sandy, there's a relatively new technique called "deep bleaching" which apparently works for tetracycline stains, too (in contrast to conventional tooth whitening procedures). You may want to look into this, it could be an alternative to veneers. Here's a good description to start you off: www.stenvallgroup.com/pages/power_bleaching.htmIt doesn't actually say on that page that it works for tetracycline stains, but they say on dentists-only discussion boards that it does. It is not that widely on offer, but there may be a dentist near you who does it. It should become more widely available in the near future.
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Post by letsconnect on Jun 26, 2005 12:51:52 GMT -5
In the context of veneers and overtreatment, it's interesting to note Gordon Christensen's essay "I have had enough" - free download (a bit better than splashing out $79 on the Journal of Esthetic and Restorative Dentistry): www.tagd.org/pdfs/newsletter_Fall_2003.pdf (pages 7 and 10) (pls note that this topic pertains to the US) I should add that 99% of dentists who provided feedback on this essay when it first appeared supported it... but it's certainly a very real (if minority) phenomenon.
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Post by letsconnect on Aug 16, 2005 17:52:46 GMT -5
I have been faced with the decision of getting porcelain veneers for years for my teeth that are permanently stained by tetracyline. Further to the post above, here's an easier technique than "deep bleaching" for whitening tetracycline stains: 9 or 10% carbamide peroxide, using well-fitting custom trays over a long period of time. Dark tetracycline stains will respond fairly well to 4-6 weeks of this (custom trays worn overnight), repeated 6-8 weeks later. Repeated again at 6 months and 8 months. The key really is persistance. Sensitivity often isn't an issue at those concentrations, if the custom tray takes into account areas of exposed dentine (which is the bit that can be sensitive to bleaching). If sensitivity is still an issue, it might be necessary to modify this protocol or else look into other options.
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