LetsConnect - Please Do Not Delete

[SoSoScared]

Can I assume from the removal of my posts that this board is 100% intolerant of any criticism of dentists?

I would like to continue posting but I am forming the opinion that unless I join the in the love-fest about how wonderful all dentists are, I shall be excluded.

I believe that there is much malpractice and over-charging that needs to be aired. It is wrong that people are denied treatment because of cost and that some dentists can play on the phobic's fears.

I work in the financial field - I see what these guys earn - please do not make them out to be like Mother Theresa working for the love of the job. Some may be, but many are not.

I do not see how the board can fully represent views if you are not prepared to examine these issues.

[letsconnect]

You may not realize that you're doing anyone with a dental phobia a big disservice by posting flames about dentists covering up the dangers of root canals etc. so that they can buy a bunch of Ferraris, and similar drivel and nonsense.

It only reinforces the notion that dental phobics generally are "difficult" and hateful of dentists. Generally speaking, this is not the case (although I'm sure there is the odd exception). Likewise, generally speaking, dentists are not out to "mutilate" and "torture" their patients in order to make a quick buck. Most dentists do care about their patients' welfare.

Please bear this in mind.

[SoSoScared]

I quite understand what you are saying, but I do feel that my sanitising any comment about dentists you are painting a very one sided picture of dental treatment in the 21st century.

Surely if the dental profession cites some phobics as difficult it is perfectly reasonable that we in turn can identify certain dentists as difficult/unprofessional, etc.

I feel that you are perpetuating the view that these people are somehow above reproach and that they are to be admired whatever their skill level.

You know that I can show you examples from the net of the vaguaries of dental care.

Many phobics are that way not because they are somehow 'flawed' but rather that they have suffered at the hands of dentists. Many people are stoic and pay up and shut up but others cannot.

I think all of this needs to be examined. There may be many posting on here who would like to share their experiences and concerns but who are afraid to criticise the dental profession because 'they wear a white coat so they must be right'.

Let's cut through all of this and state the truth - there are some very bad dentists out there. Help people to weed them out.

And do bear in mind when you advocate 'shopping around' that it can take months to even get to see one dentist, even if, like me, you are paying £40 for the privilige. To shop around could take months and months and if you are in pain that can be a very long time.

Most people will end up with the first one they see simply because they cannot stand the pain any longer. Shopping around is rather fanciful I am afraid.

Are you happy with that situation. Do you applaud the dentists pulling out of the NHS to make more money in private practice, or should we demand more care and less cash?

Honestly LC these are questions which are important to me. I am not trying to wind you or anyone else up, these things need to be addressed as people are suffering still in this day and age.

It is not a pink fluffy world out there - it is still very hard for those with small financial resources and a fear of dentists. There is fault on both sides.

[letsconnect]

While I can understand your frustration, it's not up to me to decide how your government allocates resources. Though I doubt that cutting dentists' income is the answer to the NHS crisis. You have to take into account international comparisons of income - all you're doing otherwise is prompting mass-emigration of UK dentists to the rest of the world.

You do get what you pay for (though sometimes you get less ). A lot of costs are due to lab costs, so what's the answer to that one? Cut the salaries of lab technicians? Have the government subsidize materials? Someone somewhere along the line will have to pay for it, whether directly or indirectly.

I suppose one could raise taxes to improve on the fee schedule and make the NHS system more attractive to dentists. But really, this has nothing to do with me. If you feel strongly about this, you could start an action group.

Alternatively, you could look into DenPlan or financing plans.

Compared to other countries, the UK actually has a good system in place for dental phobics who can't afford private treatment - the community dental service. In most countries, there is no such facility. Yes, the waiting lists can be long in some parts of the UK, but it's better than nothing. Again, one would have to increase salaries for community dentists rather than cut down on them to get dentists interested in the idea.

Unless you are proposing a communist system which prohibits private practice, I don't really know how to eliminate inequalities in quality of care, unless you were to *increase* dentists' income within the NHS system. But really, there is preciously little I can do about this - it's a question of UK politics. I don't think that discussing health systems on a dental phobia message board will change anything.

Just my thoughts on the topic. There may well be existing action groups you can join if you want to bring about change.

[SoSoScared]

LC - I understand the points that you raise.

What breaks my heart is the stories of people who not only have to overcome their fear of dentists but also part with ridiculous sums of money for the privilege!!

One of the things I take issue with is the 'caring dentist' who will help you with your phobia - but at an enormous price. Some of these dentists are, at the very least, profiting out of fear.

I agree that fundamental change needs to come at government level, but in the meantime I see no reason not to name and shame dentists who simply make up the first figure that comes into their head.

Okay I cannot go into too much detail here but I will quote from the 'good with phobics' dentist I wanted to use - small filling £90, larger filling £399. Now in all truth is he not profitering? Both the estimates include the words 'to avoid pain later....' implying get this done 'or else'.

I am sure there are some very good dentists about. What I want aired here is the information people need to avoid their phobia turning into bankruptcy:

1. Dentists charge pretty much what they want.
2. The same procedure can vary in cost widely between dentists.
3. Do not accept without question that all treatment is necessary.

It is empowerment of people who are scared to death and will in the main do what they are told.

I feel that breaking the myth that all dentists are good and professional enables the phobic to take back some of the power lost when confronted by anyone in a white coat. There are good and bad dentists - be informed, do not be taken for a fool.

You clearly know, and like, two or three very good dentists. Many people here will know several bad ones!

[letsconnect]

If you cannot afford private treatment, you can check out (or have someone check out for you) NHS dentists in your area. If there are none that fit the bill, there is the community dental service.

Charges for private treatment do vary quite widely; sometimes higher charges indicate higher quality (due to better materials being used), but not always. It depends on lots of factors, such as location/rent, equipment, staff etc. etc. I know a few dentists who have gone bust over the years, and it's not because they're not good, simply because dental practices are tricky businesses to run. And they ARE businesses. It's not just about fixing teeth.

It is possible to get a list of charges for various common procedures from the reception desk of dental surgeries. If you cannot go around yourself because you are too scared, a friend might help out. These can only be estimates because sometimes it turns out that the decay extends more deeply than could be seen on x-rays. If you are in doubt if a treatment is necessary, your dentist can show you using x-rays and/or mirrors (or intraoral cameras, where available) why something needs to be done or should be done. Usually, it's very easy to see, even for a layperson, once your dentist shows you. Your dentist should also explain all the different options available, and what might happen if you decide against proposed treatment. If you can't see what they're trying to show you, then obviously, it's a good idea to get a second opinion.

If you believe that root canal treatment is dangerous, even though none of the scientific literature supports this notion, then nobody can force you to save the tooth. Dental treatment is elective, it's your body and you can avoid dentists altogether if you so wish. Not what I'd recommend, but it's a personal choice you can make.

I've known some bad dentists in my lifetime, otherwise I wouldn't be here, but truly awful dentists are very much in a minority. So are money-grabbing ones. This board would be buzzing otherwise ;D! The fact of the matter is that most people actually like and trust their dentists. There are some who overtreat, there are some who undertreat, but for the most part dentists are honest in their assessment. Of course, like in any other profession, there are some bad apples.

[jamesy]

I admit I haven't seen some of the (deleted?) posts of SoSoScared's, so you can tell me to butt out if I am misinterpreting the point of this thread.

I am confused by the thought that this board is full of "hero worship" and criticism of dentists is not allowed. Obviously, there are good dentists and bad ones. Not everyone is the same. I'd like to think that there are more stories of good dentists simply because the good dentists outnumber the bad:

-I have read several posts where a dentist called a patient at home to check up on them after a surgery or difficult visit.

-Many dentists have a 24-hour emergency number or some kind of provision to take care of their patients if a need arises after office hours. Some dentists even give out their home phone numbers.

-My own dentist saw me during his lunch break when I freaked out after a bothersome visit and debated not going back.

Again, not all dentists are the same, but the ratio of good-to-bad dentists seems to confirm that most dentists are caring and helpful. But again, you can find some bad ones. How many times have we said that if you are not comfortable with your dentist, that you should just walk away? We do acknowledge that not all dentists are "Mother Teresa". And, to be honest, shopping around may not be an option for everyone. (I am in the United States, so I cannot comment on NHS.)

Many posts have started out with "I had a bad experience a while ago..." and those are certainly not deleted. In the context of those posts, it is ok to discuss poor dentists/dental service. It is when people start to get needlessly bashed (dentists are people, too! ;D) that it is not ok.

That's my 2-cents. Going to hide now.

-James (waiting for the criticism)

[SoSoScared]

Thanks for your reply Jamesy.

I totally agree that there are good and bad dentists. I suppose, as we all do, I am basing my comments in part on my own experiences, and in part on what I have read/heard.

While this board has a huge part to play in helping phobics I have formed the opinion that LC does not like any critcism of the dental profession unless it is in the passed tense. In other words one can refer to bad treatement x years ago but not currently.

LC strikes me as one like someone who has undergone a religious conversion!! lol. In other words she has overcome her fear of dentists and in her 'zeal' is not prepared to accept that huge problems still exist.

Many people on here are still struggling with their problem and it is important that they realise that any dentist who describes himself as 'phobic friendly' may indeed be just that. Or he may be someone who has found himself a 'nice little earner' as we call it in the UK!!

There will always be those that prey on fear. The dentist I have quoted in the UK is an example - I have heard of others. Yes he was friendly but he used fear tactics to encourage me to have treatment and, as I mentioned earlier was far more interested in charging me £800 to whiten my teeth than deal with the real problems which it had taken me months to build up the courage to address.

I would like LC to be a little less zealous in her praise of dentists and put herself back to where she was before she obtained treatment and 'salvation'.

Many people on here need help badly. It comes at a huge financial cost. I am a professional but the dental charges I have seen eclipse anything I could charge and get away with!

So, okay, we are faced with a bear pit of getting sympathy and help without having to sell the house to pay for it. But let's emphasise that.

I too have been seen by a dentist after hours - but I paid for it. Nothing is free in the dental world I am afraid.

I am not saying it should be! What I am saying is that dental work represents a major purchase and that everyone needs to know that they are entitled to a first class service, without being taken advantage of.

LC suggests that I might paint a picture of phobics as 'difficult' my view is that for the sort of money you are going to have to pay, you are entitled to be as 'difficult' as you like.

You are not getting charity you are getting a service which ranks in cost with a top class lawyer or accountant. And as with those professions expensive does not always equal good!!

Let's be honest. It is in a dentist's interest to find as much work to do as possible, how many treat a phobic/poor person for nothing just to help them? Very few I would guess.

And LC actually I can afford to pay. But having done a lot of research on the costs of dental care and seen various dentists I am appalled at the inconsistency in costs and diagnosis.

I think the whole industry needs a major overhaul. For everyone who posts on this board and gets treatment there are many more who for reasons of cost/intimidation/fear of huge amounts of work being done never see a dentist.

I feel for them. Some dentists are crooks. Let's say it out loud and let's try and ensure that any dentist who tries to make huge profits out of someone who is terrified is named and shamed.

Then the name of the good dentists (and of course their are many) will be immeasurably enhanced.

[vicki]

Hiya,

Mind if I chip in? Had a couple of thoughts....

SoSoScared said:

1. Dentists charge pretty much what they want.
2. The same procedure can vary in cost widely between dentists.
3. Do not accept without question that all treatment is necessary.

I think it was one of your posts SoSoScared (correct me if I'm wrong - I have the memory-span of a goldfish sometimes ;D), where you mentioned the hourly rate that dentists charge - and letsconnect replied that average was about £120 ish. There are many professions where 'services' are charged for by the hour whose hourly rate can exceed this, depending on the skill of the contractor/practitioner, location and services required etc. Examples include lawyers and plumbers - even people like myself who work in the design field charge what some people perceive to be a errr,,,, 'generous' fee. . The point is, that if you need a service then you have to pay for it (sometimes indirectly as in the case of the NHS).

SoSoScared said:

Okay I cannot go into too much detail here but I will quote from the 'good with phobics' dentist I wanted to use - small filling £90, larger filling £399. Now in all truth is he not profitering? Both the estimates include the words 'to avoid pain later....' implying get this done 'or else'.

Of course he is. People who work (either for themselves or for an employer) generally don't do it for the fun of it - they do it so they can make money which will enable them to live their life in the way they choose and the only way to have money and survive is to have a job (or win the lottery!). It is totally up to the individual what job/profession they choose so therefore it would be reasonable to suggest that dentists choose their profession because they are interested in it and are usually interested in helping other people (otherwise there wouldn't be a lot of point in them doing it). The problem arises because in the case of dentistry, it could be perceived that the dentist is out to make a profit thanks to someone else's misfortune. That could be the case if you're perhaps dealing with someone like the guy from 'Little Shop of Horrors' but I doubt that there would be THAT many of those around as they wouldn't be in business for very long would they?

As long as the goods or services you receive in exchange for your money are at least equal in value to the money you've parted with, then it's not a rip-off is it? The problem comes when it's the other way round - but you still have a choice. When you need a builder to do some work on your house, if you don't know someone, then you can either find someone through 'word of mouth' or in the yellow pages - you still have to excercise judgement in deciding whether they can do what you need at a price you're prepared to pay. Some may rip you off, some may be cheap but do a less than satisfactory job and some may do an excellent job for a reasonable price - the same is true of dentists.

jamesy said:

Again, not all dentists are the same, but the ratio of good-to-bad dentists seems to confirm that most dentists are caring and helpful. But again, you can find some bad ones.

There are bad apples in every job. There are probably some in your area of work SoSoScared, I know there are certainly some in my field. People who are just 'in it for the money' who don't really give a sh*t about the end result - but these people don't tend to get very far. There may also appear to be more references than usual to dentistry 'bad apples' on this board - because in many cases it is these FEW that can cause people to develop a phobia or fear whilst in other cases (such as mine) the fear hasn't been caused by the behaviour of a 'bad' dentist but by something else instead. Therefore I have to agree with what both James and letsconnect have said - and I'm saying this even though I'm still completely, totally and utterly terrified of going to the dentist - but I do realise that they are not (in 99% of cases) bad people.

SoSoScared said:

While this board has a huge part to play in helping phobics I have formed the opinion that LC does not like any critcism of the dental profession unless it is in the passed tense. In other words one can refer to bad treatement x years ago but not currently.

LC strikes me as one like someone who has undergone a religious conversion!! lol. In other words she has overcome her fear of dentists and in her 'zeal' is not prepared to accept that huge problems still exist.

I don't think that's really the case is it? If you read through the different sections, you'll see that there is plenty of criticism or discussion - but the point is - it's objective and based on facts - not scare tactics or anything else too subjective. Some of the people who read this board may be very sensitive to all things dental related so therefore reading posts which are deliberately intended to provoke or attract an audience may actually scare them even more, whilst others (like myself) are still completely terrified but can also 'detach' themselves from the situation when not in it and so therefore hold a *rational* and *objective* discussion or debate about the subject and not be frightened by it (unless actually at the dentists).

SoSoScared said:

Let's be honest. It is in a dentist's interest to find as much work to do as possible, how many treat a phobic/poor person for nothing just to help them? Very few I would guess.

What about the ones who give their time FOR FREE on here to answer people's questions?

How many people do you undertake work for on a FOC basis? If people didn't make money they wouldn't be able to live.

[letsconnect]

letsconnect replied that average was about £120 ish.

Quick correction - that wasn't actually an average, but I only know one dentist who helps phobic patients and charges by the hour, and he charges 120 per hour. Usually you can only find figures for yearly earnings, so I don't actually know how much the average hourly rate would be.

[letsconnect]

SoSoScared said:

Let's be honest. It is in a dentist's interest to find as much work to do as possible, how many treat a phobic/poor person for nothing just to help them? Very few I would guess.

As I stated before, if your dentist cannot show you why a treatment should be done (it IS possible for the layperson to see and understand these things!), don't consent to treatment.

Obviously, nobody privately treats dental phobics for nothing, because it would be at a cost to themselves. That would be like giving money away.

The quote you got for a "big filling" - was that for root canal treatment? Or were you referring to an inlay or onlay?

Obviously, no dentist is going to foot your lab bills, or the cost to themselves. They're hardly going to pay hundreds or thousands out of their pocket to a lab as a gift to their phobic patients. You're also paying for the equipment (a panoramic x-ray thingy costs about 70,000, to give you some idea). So to pay for the equipment, never mind rent, employees, insurance they are obliged to take out, etc. etc., dentists need to charge their patients, if you get my drift.

I did find that the posts I deleted were nothing more but scare-mongering, mixing up discredited "material" found on the internet (esp. regarding the "root-canal cover-up" "theory") with the concept of dentists as immoral and unethical money-grabbers. The fact of the matter is that virtually all dentists choose to have root canal treatment for themselves where indicated.

[letsconnect]

SoSoScared said:

It is empowerment of people who are scared to death and will in the main do what they are told.

I feel that breaking the myth that all dentists are good and professional enables the phobic to take back some of the power lost when confronted by anyone in a white coat. There are good and bad dentists - be informed, do not be taken for a fool.

If you feel that being informed can help you make the best treatment choices, I can recommend the following website: www.doctorspiller.com/

It's free!

[letsconnect]

From prospects.ac.uk, the official UK graduate careers website :


Dentist in close-up

* Typical starting salary: approximately £29,000 for vocational dental practitioners (VDPs) (salary data collected May 04).

* Range of typical salaries at senior level/with experience (eg, after 10-15 years in role): £50,000 - £65,000 (salary data collected May 04).

* Earnings can be higher in private practices but are high throughout The National Health Service (NHS) or mixed practices too. Income is determined by the amount and type of work done. In NHS Trust hospitals, dentists are paid according to nationally defined scales, ranging from £19,703 for a house officer (newly qualified) to £67,133 at consultant level.

* General dental practitioners (GDPs) can choose their working hours but must be available for out-of-hours emergencies on a rota basis. It may be necessary to visit patients at home if they are housebound. Hospital dentists tend to be employed on short-term contracts (6-12 months) and work longer, more irregular hours, but on-call earnings can boost total salary considerably.

* High stress may be experienced in handling patients' pain and anxiety, and working within strict time schedules. In hospitals, working long days and nights can limit social life outside the hospital and short contracts of employment may mean repeated job search and relocation.


I think dentists' incomes are comparable to what a clinical psychologist (who is also in the business of helping people), for example, would make. I don't think you'd find many of them who are prepared to help people for free, even though there are far less costs for equipment, materials etc. involved.

I just don't think your argument stands up to scrutiny, that's all. Of course it would be nice if everyone had free access to superior health care, but it's a somewhat, uhm, utopian ideal.

[SoSoScared]

I have to say LC that those figures bear no relationship whatsoever to the sort of salaries I have seen ordinary run of the mill local dentists earning, you could double by two and start getting a little closer!

You seem incredibly supportive of the dental profession - are you a dentist, albeit that you profess not?

I don't mind anybody making loads of cash - indeed I applaud it, but I do take issue with holding these guys up to be saints. Given half a chance most of them will get you to pay for treatment you don't need.

I feel that the phobic is least able to say 'no' in these situations and I simply don't want them to be taken advantage of simply because of their fear.

I just find it hard to equate 'caring and sympathetic with the phobic' when they are being paid such huge amounts of money. Believe me at £399 for a 20 minute filling I could show a great deal of care!!

Let's see it for what it is - a business. If you are lucky you will find someone who will neither hurt nor bankrupt you. I repeat that because these 'caring' guys pay themselves so much huge numbers of people have no dental care and live in pain.

And yes - I do give my time free to those who cannot afford it - because I make plenty of money out of those that can! But I am not playing with people's pain and fear, those are not in my opinion a licence to print money.

[letsconnect]

I don't know what the £399 was a quote for, but with the best will in the world I can't imagine it was for a large composite filling. This figure doesn't tally with any of the price lists I've seen on UK private dentists' websites.

Regarding your other points, I fail to see what you're getting at. Of course private dental practices are businesses. What else would they be?

I would object to dentists advertising themselves as "catering to chickens" in order to play on people's fears and charge more for actual procedures (other than extra time, sedation, or creating an extra-nice spa environment). I object to the minority of dentists who talk people into cosmetic procedures. But I would *not* object to a dentist charging for their time if a person with fears or anxiety takes up more time. If they don't charge for the extra time, that's great, but if they do, I think that's very fair also. As I stated already, there are community dentists in the UK for those with a dental phobia who can't afford to or don't want to go private, and who can't find a suitable NHS dentist.


P.S. I'm not a dentist in disguise.