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Post by letsconnect on Aug 26, 2005 10:51:19 GMT -5
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Post by vicki on Aug 29, 2005 9:08:07 GMT -5
No it doesn't come across as a fob-off and your thoughts are very much appreciated - you probably don't realise how much help you've been so far . I've read the post and I know that just because bad/negative things have happened in the past, it doesn't necessarily mean that they will happen again because everyone is different with different reactions to situations etc. I suppose because of past events and the reactions of other people to my anxiety/panic, somewhere along the line I began to believe that it's all my fault and therefore nobody would be able to figure out a way to help or would want to, hence the reason I go to elaborate lengths to try and disguise it. My fear(s) also seem to be a combination of rational and irrational which makes it somewhat of a tangled mess! What happened when I was little in hospital on both occasions were real events; I panicked: they got angry and hit me. Therefore, I learnt that if I panic I'll be shouted at or hit and it's a learned response. The main reason I would panic at the dentists is probably because I feel extremely vulnerable if someone is behind me putting anything near my face/mouth and if I'm laid flat - so maybe some part of my brain decides on the freeze reaction to try and stop the panic and prevent the past from repeating itself. Then comes the irrational part - 'the environment'. The only thing I can think of is that it is some sort of exaggeration of the learned fear and represents the situation/event that I fear as I have never been intentionally hurt. The only time I've experienced pain was during the filling I had and at the last appointment when the Duraphat was applied. Both times I was in quite a lot of pain but was unable to say anything or react. If I had then something would have probably been done about it. So in a way it's my own fault as I know dentists aren't mind readers (nobody is - I've read tarot cards since I was 10 and even I can't do it! ). How to communicate these fears to a dentist? How about: "Actually I'm terrified. Of everything. The place, the smell, the noise, the sharp pointy instruments, the chair and most especially you. And if you come any closer than 10ft then I may well have a panic attack and you will probably think I've just escaped from the funny farm. In fact if you sit there and I'll stand over here by the door then you can look at my teeth from there (using a pair of binoculars if you have to). That would be so much better. Thankyou very much ;D."
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Post by letsconnect on Aug 29, 2005 10:09:42 GMT -5
No it doesn't come across as a fob-off and your thoughts are very much appreciated - you probably don't realise how much help you've been so far . I wish I had a magic formula... unfortunately, there isn't one. But - thank you . Yeah, I do feel a bit useless here, lol ;D. But I'm also sure that you will be able to figure out a way forward. The main reason I would panic at the dentists is probably because I feel extremely vulnerable if someone is behind me putting anything near my face/mouth and if I'm laid flat - so maybe some part of my brain decides on the freeze reaction to try and stop the panic and prevent the past from repeating itself. You may be able to find someone who's prepared to let you sit up during treatment, at least until you're comfortable with them? The lying flat bit seems to be one of your main concerns, so would not being tipped back too far help a lot? Both times I was in quite a lot of pain but was unable to say anything or react. If I had then something would have probably been done about it. So in a way it's my own fault as I know dentists aren't mind readers (nobody is - I've read tarot cards since I was 10 and even I can't do it! ). If you could talk about this problem with "freezing" with a dentist, you might, together, figure out a way which would allow you to give a stop signal? How to communicate these fears to a dentist? How about: "Actually I'm terrified. Of everything. The place, the smell, the noise, the sharp pointy instruments, the chair and most especially you. And if you come any closer than 10ft then I may well have a panic attack and you will probably think I've just escaped from the funny farm. In fact if you sit there and I'll stand over here by the door then you can look at my teeth from there (using a pair of binoculars if you have to). That would be so much better. Thankyou very much ;D." Sounds like my own speech, except I didn't get past your first sentence (shaking too much, lol ). Yeah, that's good ;D!!
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Post by vicki on Aug 31, 2005 3:56:32 GMT -5
There has to be some way to sort this mess out (even though I know there's no magic formula) otherwise I'll be consigned to this terror forever. As it is it's been 23 years which is a long time when you're only 26 to start with. You've probably seen the government TV ad's for numeracy/literacy about 'getting rid of gremlins' - well I suppose this is my gremlin - one that keeps staring back at me every time I look in the mirror, causing pain when I eat or drink and occasionally falling out in tiny bits . I also worry that if... no, let's be positive, WHEN I somehow manage to communicate all of this, I might be asking too much ? A bit like asking for the moon on a stick?! Most people can get through appointments without anything having to be changed or done differently just because they're 'nervous'... I guess I don't want to be made to feel bad for asking as I feel small, stupid and terrified enough already.
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Post by letsconnect on Aug 31, 2005 6:37:38 GMT -5
I also worry that if... no, let's be positive, WHEN I somehow manage to communicate all of this, I might be asking too much ? A bit like asking for the moon on a stick?! Most people can get through appointments without anything having to be changed or done differently just because they're 'nervous'... I guess I don't want to be made to feel bad for asking as I feel small, stupid and terrified enough already. I always find it helpful to consult some "official literature" - such as BUPA's fact sheet on dental anxiety: hcd2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/html/dental_anxiety.htmlSo the short answer is - no, you're not asking too much ! But you may want to consider seeing a dentist privately, (a) because of the time pressure on NHS dentists and (b) because I don't think you'll get the best treatment for what you're describing (dental-wise) on the NHS...
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 2, 2005 7:37:17 GMT -5
Just wanted to add (re. "asking too much") - it really varies from dentist to dentist what they might interpret as "asking too much". Some dentists would be more than happy to accommodate your needs, but of course there are those who are not keen on dealing with nervous patients (either because they're not good at patient communication, or because they're under too much time-pressure, or because they simply don't like dealing with patients rather than teeth). I know of a lot of dentists who would find it very easy to accommodate your needs, if you let them know how they can make things easier for you. What I'm saying is - from what I've heard, you don't strike me as particularly "difficult" at all !!
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Post by vicki on Sept 2, 2005 13:54:26 GMT -5
I suppose it depends what you mean by "difficult". If someone has a panic attack or is extremely nervous in front of someone who can't either relate to it or make an attempt to understand it in some way, then they could perceive the person who panics as difficult - because it's difficult for them to deal with it or they can't be bothered because they think it's stupid or they have no patience. If on the other hand, someone has a panic attack or is extremely nervous in front of someone who either panics themselves or who can at least make an attempt to understand the situation from the other person's point of view then the panicking person probably won't feel quite as bad. Then of course, I suppose if you believe you're difficult (which I probably do ), I guess you must project your own thoughts onto the other person e.g. "I feel really freaked out/panicky and feel awkward because of it so therefore they must also feel awkward because of my behaviour". When I got the referral to hospital for the acid reflux, at the initial appointment with consultant I was perfectly OK, chilled out, sense of humour functioning fine and I was able talk perfectly normally, at ease and string a sentence together. I was told I'd need an endoscopy which they'd do in two weeks' time. When endoscopy day came, during the actual procedure I had such a bad panic attack and made such a total exhibition of myself (they had given me the routine IV sedation but I'd produced so much adrenalin it more or less counter-acted it). In fact it was worse than a panic attack because I was confused because of the drugs as well - apparently I was thrashing about and gasping for air like a fish out of water and ripping the endoscope out everytime he put it in! (actually sounds quite funny to me now - good job I can laugh about it now! ;D). Anyway to get to the point, at every follow-up appointment after that, his attitude towards me had changed (even though he was actually one of the nicer doctors I've met and I've met loads and loads) - suddenly I was someone to be very wary of who was unpredictable and he looked as nervous of me as I was of him on the day of the panic attack. I felt so ashamed and embarrassed that I actually pointed out that I was still the same person... the person with a brain who had just as many letters after their name as he had after his, a sense of humour and who was actually fairly sensible (well, most of the time! lol!) to which he replied, "yes I realise that but I've never seen a panic attack like that before and I've seen lots". That comment helped to persuade me that my panic attacks (and therefore any associated anxiety) are not "normal" and so therefore I must be "difficult". It was shortly after this that I made the decision to stop the dental avoidance and try and make an appointment (after over 6 years).
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 2, 2005 20:06:52 GMT -5
I suppose it depends what you mean by "difficult". If someone has a panic attack or is extremely nervous in front of someone who can't either relate to it or make an attempt to understand it in some way, then they could perceive the person who panics as difficult - because it's difficult for them to deal with it or they can't be bothered because they think it's stupid or they have no patience. Or they somehow feel it's their fault. And then they start feeling bad about themselves, and they might even transfer those negative feelings onto you (as the perceived "cause" of their discomfort)? Just speculating. In any event, someone who's pretty laid-back and confident in themselves wouldn't attribute your behaviour to having done something wrong themselves. It might simply not bother them an awful lot? Then of course, I suppose if you believe you're difficult (which I probably do ), I guess you must project your own thoughts onto the other person e.g. "I feel really freaked out/panicky and feel awkward because of it so therefore they must also feel awkward because of my behaviour". I think you're right there. When endoscopy day came, during the actual procedure I had such a bad panic attack and made such a total exhibition of myself (they had given me the routine IV sedation but I'd produced so much adrenalin it more or less counter-acted it). In fact it was worse than a panic attack because I was confused because of the drugs as well - apparently I was thrashing about and gasping for air like a fish out of water and ripping the endoscope out everytime he put it in! (actually sounds quite funny to me now - good job I can laugh about it now! ;D). LOL - it *does* sound funny ;D... it was an exceptional circumstance though. When you're totally drugged up AND you're fighting the effect of the drug at the same time, of course your emotions may be amplified. As much as you'd like to believe you were in control at the time, people do strange things while "under the influence", and everyone reacts differently. In IV veritas, and all that . Anyway to get to the point, at every follow-up appointment after that, his attitude towards me had changed (even though he was actually one of the nicer doctors I've met and I've met loads and loads) - suddenly I was someone to be very wary of who was unpredictable and he looked as nervous of me as I was of him on the day of the panic attack. I felt so ashamed and embarrassed that I actually pointed out that I was still the same person... the person with a brain who had just as many letters after their name as he had after his, a sense of humour and who was actually fairly sensible (well, most of the time! lol!) to which he replied, "yes I realise that but I've never seen a panic attack like that before and I've seen lots". I'd say that, for people who want sedation to work (at some level), it generally works. But if you have someone "fighting" it, then unpredictable things may well happen. I would say he probably felt a bit helpless and inadequate (and - he ain't seen nothin' yet, lol ). Just sounds like he's a wee bit over-sensitive... probably kept trying again and again before figuring out it wasn't gonna work and then got spooked... The situation you described is very different from the one you're trying to face now, though. That comment helped to persuade me that my panic attacks (and therefore any associated anxiety) are not "normal" and so therefore I must be "difficult". It was shortly after this that I made the decision to stop the dental avoidance and try and make an appointment (after over 6 years). Were these two events connected I'm sorry - I won't be around for a few days (until Wednesday), so if you don't hear from me in the meantime, I'm not ignoring you - just won't have internet access!!
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Post by vicki on Sept 5, 2005 11:11:48 GMT -5
That comment helped to persuade me that my panic attacks (and therefore any associated anxiety) are not "normal" and so therefore I must be "difficult". It was shortly after this that I made the decision to stop the dental avoidance and try and make an appointment (after over 6 years). Were these two events connected I realised that my teeth were being eroded by the acid reflux a few weeks before I went for the endoscopy and knew I had to go back to the dentists (but couldn't do anything about it because I couldn't face it). I probably wouldn't have done anything about it for a long long time if my mum hadn't noticed the state of my teeth and started asking awkward questions. I ended up confessing to 'forgetting to go' (for over 6 years - yeah right!) and told her that I was no longer registered with the practice anymore because I hadn't been for so long. After several rounds of interrogation and "How could you? You always used to go every 6 months when you were younger!", she decided to re-register me as a patient at the same place and make an appointment for me (I sort of agreed because I told myself I could cancel it nearer the time and nobody would know). You can imagine how thrilled I was ---> . This was early January 2002 - the first routine appointment they had was in June that year - six whole long months away; the longer the better as far as I was concerned! At the end of January, I had the endoscopy and the massive panic attack. Due to the flashbacks that caused it and certain similarities between that situation, past events and dental appointments, I began to sort of piece together why I was terrified of visits to the dentist. This only made it worse - I felt even more stupid than I already thought I was because of the existing panic attacks. Then my teeth started to get sore when I ate certain foods - suddenly my fears were beginning to catch up with me. I knew I was scared because of events from my past, I knew I was terrified of being out of control, of what may or may not happen and also of my reactions - the existing panic attacks and anxiety. I also knew that I was petrified of having a panic attack because of what might happen to me if I did. I suppose the two events are connected because I was fully intending to cancel the appointment in June but the 'incident' in hospital proved that I had survived one of my worst panic attacks in front of someone else and hadn't been 'punished' for it as I had in the past. So therefore going to the dentist might not be as risky in that respect as I had previously thought although every aspect of it still terrified me. I was out with a friend one afternoon (about March time I think) when I chewed on something and it hurt like hell. I flinched - she noticed and said I shouldn't wait until June to go to the dentist. No way - why would I want to go any sooner despite the pain??!! She phoned up pretending to be me and got an appointment in the April. I told her I wasn't going and she told me I was because she was coming with me and I had no choice. Weeks of panic attacks and sleepless nights followed. I took beta blockers everyday but I couldn't sleep and felt ill from the lack of it so I decided I needed some 'chemical assistance' and visited the GP. I told her I was stressed at work and couldn't sleep, that it was a temporary thing - she obliged with a months prescription for sleeping pills. The day of reckoning came and I was in such a state that my friend ended up holding me down on the chair in the waiting room because I was determined to leave. After what seemed like hours, my turn came - I discovered that I had to go downstairs into the basement (How could life be so cruel? Stairs? Me? I go dizzy when I'm terrified - stairs were the last thing I needed!). Needless to say, I fell all the way down and landed on my hands and knees, shaking in the doorway at the bottom of the stairs! I was met by a pair feet which, when I looked up, were attached to a rather startled dentist! I thought that if I could get this appointment over and done with, then the worst bit would be done and that somehow I'd get used to it and the fear would eventually go, but it hasn't - it's got worse. After I got back from the first appointment, I decided to use the anxiety/panic questionnaire in the book I mentioned earlier. It lists all the symptoms of anxiety/panic and you have to score them out of 3, 0=not at all and 3=constant. By doing this, I thought I'd be able to see if I was making any progress - a sort of objective way of scoring anxiety as emotions can sometimes cloud judgment (this has also helped in the past for other situations so I thought it was worth a try). After the first appointment I scored 65 out of a possible 72. I did make some progress after that and it gradually went down to 30 over a couple of years but after the last appointment it was 68 (I file them away after I've done them - if I can't see the previous results, they can't affect the current one). Can't believe I've written such a long post again - I used to have real trouble writing long assignments at college!
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 6, 2005 19:24:39 GMT -5
I suppose the two events are connected because I was fully intending to cancel the appointment in June but the 'incident' in hospital proved that I had survived one of my worst panic attacks in front of someone else and hadn't been 'punished' for it as I had in the past. So something good actually came out of it . I think that when we're scared, we tend to overemphasize the negative aspects of an event (which you mentioned in your second-last post) and rehearse them again and again. Which in turn makes us more scared, and the more negative our mood is, the more likely we are to rehearse all the negatives. I would wager a bet that, having actually tried therapy and self-help methods, you would have a better idea how to stop these negative thoughts (and replacing them with more positive thoughts, as in the example above) than I would ;D. I decided I needed some 'chemical assistance' and visited the GP. I told her I was stressed at work and couldn't sleep, that it was a temporary thing - she obliged with a months prescription for sleeping pills. My personal feeling is that sleeping pills for home use should be banned... I've seen people get really messed up by them . Never mind the huge addiction potential... sorry for the little rant! After what seemed like hours, my turn came - I discovered that I had to go downstairs into the basement (How could life be so cruel? Stairs? Me? I go dizzy when I'm terrified - stairs were the last thing I needed!). Needless to say, I fell all the way down and landed on my hands and knees, shaking in the doorway at the bottom of the stairs! I was met by a pair feet which, when I looked up, were attached to a rather startled dentist! LOL ;D - sorry for laughing out loud, but have you ever thought of writing a novel?? That description was pretty funny *grin*... After the first appointment I scored 65 out of a possible 72. I did make some progress after that and it gradually went down to 30 over a couple of years but after the last appointment it was 68 (I file them away after I've done them - if I can't see the previous results, they can't affect the current one). When did the scores start going up again? Was that after "The Scream" - or after having to change dentists?
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Post by vicki on Sept 7, 2005 3:45:19 GMT -5
I would wager a bet that, having actually tried therapy and self-help methods, you would have a better idea how to stop these negative thoughts (and replacing them with more positive thoughts, as in the example above) than I would ;D. I suppose the answer to this is yes and no . I've read that many books and websites that I could probably write a book on self-help and trying to sort thoughts and fears out (and ironically am usually fairly good at sorting other people's problems out because of it but not always my own ). Most of the time (in relation to other panic inducing situations) I can sort of reduce the thoughts to a level where they can at worst cause anxiety rather than panic. The trouble seems to be in this situation that I appear to have met my nemesis - it's way too big for me to beat. The thought processes in other situations are usually more straightforward whereas this is more complex with loads of issues. Also, the negative thoughts that trigger panic are usually linked to situations which occured in the past and over which I had some sort of control. But I had no control over the past events that contribute to my fear so therefore I can't do anything differently apart from do everything possible not to have a panic attack or be nervous in front of someone else. Just as I think I've sorted one small part of it out, something else happens or appears. I'm also running out of ideas... hence the title of my post!!! (Except I'm not so 'new' anymore!! ;D) My personal feeling is that sleeping pills for home use should be banned... I've seen people get really messed up by them . Never mind the huge addiction potential... sorry for the little rant! I couldn't agree more... Personally, I also think that GP's dish out sleeping pills and antidepressants etc far too much because it's an easy solution (and one which can actually cause more problems) rather than sorting the actual problem out - this is why I refuse to take antidepressants and take beta blockers instead. There is a world of difference between panic/anxiety and depression and a bit of a grey area in the middle where the two meet (from what I've read anyway). In relation to my own case, I decided that they would only ever be a temporary measure (I took them for 1 week before the appointment) as I also knew the implications, but because I felt so wrecked from the lack of sleep, I knew that it wouldn't help my situation if I was feeling physically ill on the day of the appointment so I decided to take them. LOL ;D - sorry for laughing out loud, but have you ever thought of writing a novel?? That description was pretty funny *grin*... I can laugh about it now - I have to maintain a sense of humour otherwise I really would go insane. He must have wondered what the hell he was dealing with when I turned up on my hands and knees covered in carpet burns! Especially as he would have heard me falling all the way down - god, how embarrassing.... At least he kept a straight face which is more than I could have done if I'd been him (!). I still have the stairs problem though. Because I see someone else now, it's a different room which is upstairs (and yes I also have the amazing ability to fall upstairs as well as down!) but there is a waiting room between the stairs and the treatment room so thankfully nobody sees my little antics on the stairs! As for the novel... 'My dental adventures - a thrilling, drilling tale full of intrigue, mystery and suspense' will be published and available through all good bookshops... one day....!!! When did the scores start going up again? Was that after "The Scream" - or after having to change dentists? It went up again after "The Scream" but I expected that because I'd had a panic attack so of course the score would be high. It was also raised after the next appointment because (on top of the existing fear and paralysis) I was also ashamed and embarrassed because of my behaviour at the previous appointment. It didn't go as high as at the start. The score went back up into the '60's' after changing dentists so it's like I'm back to square one. It now feels like I'll never be free of this...
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 7, 2005 6:23:08 GMT -5
I hope this is not going to be too blunt ... but there is a theme running through your posts. I suppose I tried to hint at it before, but it might have got snowed under... and another moderator mentioned it to me, so it's not just me who feels that way. Here it is: But I had no control over the past events that contribute to my fear so therefore I can't do anything differently apart from do everything possible not to have a panic attack or be nervous in front of someone else. Basically, you're saying that the only solution that is acceptable to you is if you can change yourself to the extend that you no longer have a panic attack. Not only that, but... the only solution is not to even be NERVOUS in front of someone else The problem is - the kind of "perfection" you're talking about is simply unobtainable. Of course, over a period, you may well lose your fear and stop panicking, but what you're demanding of yourself right now is not going to happen - that magically, somehow, you can "pull yourself together" and grin and bear it. It might be easier to accept the idea that you will feel panic and move on with it? The dentist is ONLY a dentist and you are ONLY one of his or her (many) patients. In other words, does it *really* matter what s/he thinks of you?? Many people who have been abused in some way or other in the past are terrified of being "rejected" by the dentist ("S/he will think I'm awful"). They view the dentist as a powerful authority figure, who can inflict pain and can refuse to treat them again. When they're in the dental practice, they turn into a little kid that freezes, is powerless, can't do anything, has no control. But you are not a little kid now, you are not powerless, and you CAN have control. I've already mentioned some examples in previous posts, in relation to stop signals. I feel that, if you meet a dentist you can establish rapport with, your thinking will change, also on an emotional level, to viewing your dentist as someone who is a "partner" or helper, rather than someone who is in power and control over you. Making one (and then another one...) very *small* change at a time is actually far easier than trying to change everything all at once (as in, not having a panic attack, or not feeling nervous). But people are sometimes afraid that they might "fail" while trying to make that small change, so it's easier to set ourselves a huge challenge instead and then tell ourselves there's nothing we can do - because it's all too overwhelming. Of course, if we do nothing, we can't fail ;D... mission accomplished ... You're worried what the dentist will think if you have a panic attack. That s/he will look at you differently. The guy who did the endoscopy looked at you differently after the panic attack, making you feel you are abnormal. That's horrible. But again, your conclusion is that it must be *your* fault, that *you* are "abnormal". When you were actually in there, it would have been difficult to think anything else. But now you're at home (or at work, as the case may be . Perhaps you can now entertain the thought that you are not the abnormal one, but the endoscopy consultant is the abnormal one - because he couldn't cope with a person who has those kinds of panic attacks. And - who is to say that your dentist would react in the same way? Especially if you write to them and explain the kind of behaviour you may exhibit if you do have a panic attack? You're obviously good at writing. So, why not write him or her a letter putting in all the issues you've written about here? Then, in the letter, ask them whether they'd be prepared to (a) write back to you, or (b) telephone you with their response, or (c) meet you in their practice - away from the chair - to talk about it. Someone on the board a while ago saying that they had found a (female) dentist and were corresponding with her by email and hoped to eventually make it into her office (so there are dentists out there who will write back). If you feel uncomfortable with this (and I did, too - I felt uncomfortable taking up someone's time and energy without actually reimbursing them for their time), option (c) might be best for you? The score went back up into the '60's' after changing dentists so it's like I'm back to square one. One very small change (which is actually a big change) I feel you need to make is to meet a dentist just for a chat. Your task during that chat would be to figure out whether or not there is rapport between you - whether or not you trust and have confidence in this person. It's quite telling that the score shot up after you had to change dentists. I can laugh about it now - I have to maintain a sense of humour otherwise I really would go insane. As for the novel... 'My dental adventures - a thrilling, drilling tale full of intrigue, mystery and suspense' will be published and available through all good bookshops... one day....!!! Looking forward to it big time ;D!! If you can apply that same sense of humour to your panic attacks, you're halfway there .
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 12, 2005 6:29:05 GMT -5
I hope my last post didn't come across as "criticism" - it was not intended that way . I actually find it admirable that you're setting such high standards for yourself. It just doesn't strike me as very practical, that's all . Might be more a reflection of my own low standards, lol. I'm making some enquiries about chair positioning at the moment (cos the issue cropped up in another post as well), and will let you know what dentists' take on it is... might take a few days though!
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Post by vicki on Sept 12, 2005 11:43:43 GMT -5
Just got back from a few days in London (strange place - full of strange people who seem to be fascinated with northern accents!! ). I read your post a few days ago but have been unable to reply because I've been using my XDA to surf the net whilst I've been away - the damn thing wouldn't let me submit a reply though ! Basically, you're saying that the only solution that is acceptable to you is if you can change yourself to the extend that you no longer have a panic attack. Not only that, but... the only solution is not to even be NERVOUS in front of someone else I suppose so yes.... it works to some extent as it reduces the chances of people noticing my behaviour which in turn means I don't feel as bad because there's nothing for them to see, but it doesn't work for me personally - I still feel physically sick at the thought of going to the dentist (never mind actually going there!). So I decided there had to be another way which is why I decided to post on here... Of course, over a period, you may well lose your fear and stop panicking, but what you're demanding of yourself right now is not going to happen - that magically, somehow, you can "pull yourself together" and grin and bear it. People who can't relate to anxiety/panic do tell you to 'pull yourself together' or similar and it's what I've mostly been told to do by people around me - I don't actually know anyone who is as scared ****less as I am of going to the dentist (apart from what I've read on here so at least I know I'm not alone in that respect although I do know a few who admit to not liking it - but they are the 'grin and bear it' types. I thought that if people who don't like going can get through it by 'grinning and bearing it' then I would be able to as well. If it works for them etc. Of course there's a world of difference between disliking the experience and being terrified to the point of paralysis - so if you only dislike it then 'pulling yourself together' may work. The dentist is ONLY a dentist and you are ONLY one of his or her (many) patients. In other words, does it *really* matter what s/he thinks of you?? No it doesn't, not in the grand scheme of things. The reactions of others towards you can play a part in determining how you see yourself though. They view the dentist as a powerful authority figure, who can inflict pain and can refuse to treat them again. When they're in the dental practice, they turn into a little kid that freezes, is powerless, can't do anything, has no control. I'm not powerless right now but I am when I get in there - it's like a reflex such as blinking so yes I do freeze and if I could move I would but I can't seem to. The only way I can describe it is like when you fall asleep on your arm for instance. The weight of your head cuts the blood supply temporarily to the nerves and muscles, so after the pins and needles feeling has worn off if you try and move the arm, you can't. Your brain is sending the signals but it just doesn't happen - not until blood flow is restored. The same applies to speaking - I would love to be able to say 'stop, I'm not ready for this...' - the words are in my head but that's where they get stuck I feel that, if you meet a dentist you can establish rapport with, your thinking will change, also on an emotional level, to viewing your dentist as someone who is a partner or helper, rather than someone who is in power and control over you. I know it's crazy - but I suppose it goes back to the issue of trust again. But people are sometimes afraid that they might fail while trying to make that small change, so it's easier to set ourselves a huge challenge instead and then tell ourselves there's nothing we can do - because it's all too overwhelming. Of course, if we do nothing, we can't fail ;D... mission accomplished ... I can't be afraid of failing - I've been failing to sort this out for the past 23 years! so you could say I'm used to it - every time I go in fact! But I do sort of know what you mean. You're worried what the dentist will think if you have a panic attack. That s/he will look at you differently. Yes I am - it's hard to go back and face someone at the next appointment if you've been a bag of nerves at the last one. Part of me would love to say: "You can't deal with my anxiety? Think how I feel pal! I'm not the one wielding the sharp pointy instruments am I? ! So either learn to live with it and do something constructive to help or shut up!" but I would never say that in a million years! You're obviously good at writing. So, why not write him or her a letter putting in all the issues you've written about here? I think I'm going to have to... it's becoming quite clear that I'm not going to be able to get the words out verbally. It's quite telling that the score shot up after you had to change dentists. Yes it is but it could be my distorted perception of things (I know things get distorted during panic which explains for example, why the instruments look ten times bigger and more like they've been purchased from the tools section of B&Q!) - If I met the nicest dentist in the world they would probably still appear to be like Audrey's boyfriend (or the female equivalent) from Little Shop Of Horrors.... As for setting myself high standards... I do have some appallingly low standards as well ;D !!! I don't suppose it is very practical but I've got to try something - anything is better than nothing... I just hope I don't get to the bottom of the list without anything working.
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 12, 2005 22:19:55 GMT -5
Uhm... I haven't thought this through yet, this is just a quick note... but could it be a case of "IF I panic, which in my book equals making a moron out of myself, THEN I thereby create a situation where the dentist is "better"/superior/right and I'm "worse"/inferior/wrong - and it won't be possible to ever rectify that balance of power and control" ? Which would then lead on to problems like "freezing" in the chair etc.? I dunno, I might be totally off the mark here... but it might explain why you feel that doing everything possible not to appear nervous in front of a dentist feels like the way forward for you.
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Post by vicki on Sept 13, 2005 5:33:10 GMT -5
Maybe... I dunno either ! It is hard to feel on the same level as other people during a panic attack or even when anxious. What I do know is that I've got way too many issues going on simultaneously which are all somehow linked to each other. If you stick your hand in a fire when you're little - it hurts so you either learn not to do it again (problem solved) or you develop a fear of fire. In my case, in the past I panicked in a certain situation which had bad consequences (on two occasions) and although my reaction was perfectly "normal" given the situation, the reaction of the other people present wasn't. So, given the example above, I couldn't learn not to panic as it's a natural human response in some situations so I opted for the closest thing to that which is to try and cover it up as an attempt at a solution. Obviously it's not a solution so I also as a consequence, developed a fear of that situation as well so in a way I took both options <---- I don't do things by halves!! . Up until my first appointment at the dentist, a terrifying fear of that situation was sort of OK because I wouldn't find myself in it that often. But because it has some strong similarities with past events the fear gets relived everytime I go - complete with flashbacks if I'm really unlucky.
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 13, 2005 7:36:16 GMT -5
Hope you had a great time in London, strange people and all ;D! People who can't relate to anxiety/panic do tell you to 'pull yourself together' or similar and it's what I've mostly been told to do by people around me No it doesn't, not in the grand scheme of things. The reactions of others towards you can play a part in determining how you see yourself though. That's certainly true, but quite a few people (including dentists) are able to relate to anxiety/panic. How would you like a dentist to react, ideally, in case you do have a panic attack? I'm not powerless right now but I am when I get in there - it's like a reflex such as blinking so yes I do freeze and if I could move I would but I can't seem to. The same applies to speaking - I would love to be able to say 'stop, I'm not ready for this...' - the words are in my head but that's where they get stuck I feel that oftentimes, people view themselves as passive recipients in the dental situation, while viewing the dentist as the active agent, who's in control over proceedings. But this is not necessarily the case. There's a really interesting dentist guy I'm in contact with at the moment who proposes that this is an outdated way of looking at the doctor-patient relationship (the scheme is called "People as Partners" - and he'd kill me for using the word "patient", lol, cos of the negative connotations regarding the "power relationship" between the two parties involved...). I know it's crazy - but I suppose it goes back to the issue of trust again. You mentioned before that one way you learn to trust doctors is by getting to know them very well. You also said that up until now, you've never actually sat down with a dentist just for a chat (which, of course, would be a very good idea if you need to know someone in order to be able to trust them). And of course, there is the issue of rapport - we don't get on equally well with everyone. They may be very nice people in their own right, but on a psychological level, we're simply unable to connect with them or their personality style. Trust is a strange thing... and everyone experiences it differently. So the question really is - what do YOU need in a dentist in order to be able to trust them? Yes I am - it's hard to go back and face someone at the next appointment if you've been a bag of nerves at the last one. Part of me would love to say: "You can't deal with my anxiety? Think how I feel pal! I'm not the one wielding the sharp pointy instruments am I? ! So either learn to live with it and do something constructive to help or shut up!" but I would never say that in a million years! Again, what you're describing is a relationship of inequality, with the "superior" (dentist) "wielding sharp pointy instruments", while you're at her or his mercy... IMPORTANT BIT COMING UP: Part of you would love to say to your dentist "do something constructive to help!". Can you think of any concrete examples of constructive things which would help? I think I'm going to have to... it's becoming quite clear that I'm not going to be able to get the words out verbally. I reckon that's an excellent idea !!
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Post by vicki on Sept 14, 2005 18:45:36 GMT -5
London was OK - part business, part pleasure. Met up with some of my family and had a laugh (with some of their friends who thought it was hilarious that I have a 'bath' rather than a 'barth' as they do. Yeah yeah... ha ha! ;D) How would you like a dentist to react, ideally, in case you do have a panic attack? 1) It would help if they were calm and not irritated or flustered by it. 2) To understand that; (a) I haven't consciously decided to have a panic attack or be terrified and it's not on purpose. If it was a conscious decision that I could make or unmake, there's no way I'd be doing it. (b) I already feel seriously humiliated, ashamed and terrified by the whole experience of panic attacks and anxiety - especially in front of other people. Please don't make it any worse otherwise I might not return for another appointment (with any dentist) - I avoided it for years in the past and it has taken a lot to get this far. So the question really is - what do YOU need in a dentist in order to be able to trust them? 1) To know that they'll stop if I ask them to but that I'm also too terrified to speak or move sometimes so I may not be able to say or do anything. 2) To know that they'll take things at my pace, no matter what that may be. 3) To know that they'll explain things first and throughout instead of just going ahead anyway. I can't always ask questions or for an explanation. Even though I'm scared to the point where I'm surprised my hair hasn't turned white (!), I am able to understand and make rational decisions and despite appearances, I'm not an idiot and don't want to be treated like one. 4) For them to be honest and take it seriously if I say something hurts (even if it's not meant to). I don't make things up for the fun of it - quite the opposite - I'd rather get it over and done with and get out! 5) They would need to understand that there may be some things I cannot cope with even if I do trust them. IMPORTANT BIT COMING UP: Part of you would love to say to your dentist "do something constructive to help!". Can you think of any concrete examples of constructive things which would help? Hmmmm... hard question to answer . Although my anxiety level is constantly high the whole time I'm in the building, it also changes from second to second once that dreaded door opens. It depends on what is happening or what is going to happen, so it's not that easy to know exactly what would help because it would depend on the situation at the time. One thing I do know though is that during the past three years, there have been a few times when I have needed something doing other than an examination. Either just before or during treatment I've become noticeably more stressed and he (previous dentist) carried on anyway which caused my anxiety to tip 'over the edge' into panic. On one occasion I remember being asked "Can't you lie still?" - obviously I would have done, if I could have. I tried as hard as I could and felt really small and stupid because the trembling was making things more difficult. I think it would have been a lot better if he had stopped doing whatever it was and explained what was happening or talked until my anxiety had reduced enough to stop the panic.
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 15, 2005 9:23:12 GMT -5
Fantastic post. That list of things is excellent, and looks very workable. So basically, some of things that you'd need to know of your dentist are that: (1) when you have a panic attack, they will be calm and not irritated or flustered (2) they understand that you feel seriously humiliated, ashamed and terrified by experiencing panic attacks and anxiety in front of other people (3) they will stop if you ask them to, but sometimes you're too terrified to speak or move. So you need to work out some sort of way or signal of communicating this, which your dentist will recognize (4) they will take things at your pace (5) they will explain things before and throughout any procedure, and should you panic during a procedure, stop and explain what is happening or talk until your anxiety had reduced enough to stop the panic (6) they have to be honest - can you clarify that point? What exactly do you mean? Do you mean being honest if something might cause you pain, or more generally? (7) they need to take you seriously if you say something hurts (8) they would need to understand that there may be some things you cannot cope with even if you do trust them - any things in particular? ----- Now for something totally off-topic: I'm planning to move this board to a proper vBulletin board, with it's own domain name... and I'm in dire need of suggestions for URLs... if anyone wants to throw out some names, your help would be appreciated! I was thinking of www.dentalphobias.org (because it would show up in the top 10 Google results pretty quickly), but something a bit more original and/or memorable might be better in the long run... any suggestions are welcome !!
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Post by vicki on Sept 15, 2005 16:15:55 GMT -5
Fantastic post. That list of things is excellent, and looks very workable. I really hope so... The more I type, the more I realise what a nightmare I must be to deal with. To an outside observer, I must appear 'as mad as a box of biscuits'! they have to be honest - can you clarify that point? What exactly do you mean? Do you mean being honest if something might cause you pain, or more generally? Be honest about things which might cause pain (bearing in mind that when anxious, 'uncomfortable' or 'discomfort' is quite often just as painful as actual 'pain' ). Also be honest about what may be involved in any procedures etc. Surprises of any kind are the last thing I need! When dealing with nervous people, others sometimes tend not to tell the nervous person the whole story because they think they can't take it - they edit bits out or 'dumb it down' to make it more acceptable. For me, something unexpected happening is far worse and more likely to cause panic than being told about it in the first place (as long as they bear in mind that if it's something unpleasant, the anxiety may increase - but I would still rather know). they would need to understand that there may be some things you cannot cope with even if you do trust them - any things in particular? Not quite sure how to explain this... Sometimes appointments are really bad and sometimes not so bad in terms of anxiety - but there doesn't seem to be any pattern to it. So, for example, although I might be reasonably OK with something at one appointment, I might not be at the next. Normally, a sudden increase in anxiety could be linked to a specific event, which if the person was to experience the same thing again, their anxiety would probably increase again - therefore enabling anxiety triggers to be identified because of a repeated link between the event and the response. This is true in my case but I also suddenly get freaked out by things that I might have been OK with in the past and might be OK with in the future. This might explain why my current dentist appeared somewhat rattled by my behaviour at the last appointment. The time before last, I had fissure seals on some of the affected teeth and although I was scared and trembling (even though I've had it done before - years ago but I know what happens), I got through it. At the last appointment I had duraphat applied (also had this quite a few times) which from a patient's perspective (especially if your eyes are shut!) feels similar and takes about the same amount of time. This time though, yes I was trembling and silently scared but about half way through, I suddenly got freaked out and started hyperventilating as well. So I guess what I'm saying is that although I may be able to cope with something at the time, I may or may not be able to at the next appointment. Now for something totally off-topic: I'm planning to move this board to a proper vBulletin board, with it's own domain name... and I'm in dire need of suggestions for URLs... if anyone wants to throw out some names, your help would be appreciated! I was thinking of www.dentalphobias.org (because it would show up in the top 10 Google results pretty quickly), but something a bit more original and/or memorable might be better in the long run... any suggestions are welcome !! Tricky one.... need to think about it! It's a bit too late tonight (the lights are on but nobody's at home so to speak!) so hopefully I'll say something more useful tomorrow while I'm at work! A few thoughts though... Who are you trying to attract: Who do you want to read or contribute to the board (I'm assuming the same as at present)? Eg. Experienced or new dental phobics (not sure which I am !), Those with success stories/hope for the rest of us, friends/relatives of people with a fear or phobia who want info or advice or even people whose job title begins with the letter "D" ;D What's different/special about the message board as opposed to other websites or message boards? Why do people post on here? A desire to help? Wanting information? Sheer terror and desperation - needing advice and support? Wanting to vent? The answers to these questions may give a starting point - if you know what people are looking for, you can help them find you more easily. Enough marketing and advertising nonsense from me tonight...
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Post by vicki on Sept 16, 2005 4:53:44 GMT -5
Some more thoughts about Google listings.... After speaking to someone I work with who knows more about web stuff than I do - being a graphic designer, I do know a bit (enough to spend money and post messages anyway!), but we also have web designers and programmers who obviously know the fine detail. You probably know this already... so I may be waffling... . Search engines use the keywords that people put in to search the meta tags of websites (both the description and the keywords - which are best limited to about 25 words). If by chance one of the search words matches a word in the domain name, then that website will appear in the results as well. I asked what determines how high in the results listings a website appears and he said it's a combination of how many search words match the meta tags (and the domain name - although some say search engines only search the tags and some say they do both), how many hits the site has and also how many other sites link to that website. Submitting the URL to Google ensures that it's definately listed for a month which should increase the number of hits so that it stays reasonably high. Obviously paid for/sponsored links will always appear first. So it's probably more important that the domain name is memorable and something people can identify with - and let the meta tags/number of hits do the rest. An example would be the Beyond Fear website - the domain name doesn't mention "Dental" fear/phobia but the descriptions and keywords do. Still doesn't answer your question though does it....??!! ... need to give it some thought!!! Why do people visit Dental Fear Central and then choose to post on the message board ?? For me, it was the info and advice on the website initally as it's much more practical/realistic and from a phobic's point of view rather than some other sites. You also encourage *dentists* to read and post which helps people who are scared, to see it from another perspective. Other sites don't always concentrate on finding a solution or are written by people who (however well meaning they are) don't always have the same degree of fear - they haven't been there so these sites in my case, didn't 'connect' with me.
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 16, 2005 8:09:42 GMT -5
I'm going to respond in two separate posts, otherwise this is gonna get too messy . First the message board URL... Yeah, pretty much the same. I'd like to keep it focused on the 3% of the population (or whatever the real figure may be) who are terrified, rather than just mildly anxious. But I also enjoy the dentistry questions section, so quite often, I'll let posts slip through that don't have much of an anxiety angle - depending on how busy the board is at the time... Obviously, it would be nice to have more success stories posted - the trouble is that those who are successful usually leave the board the minute they're OK - which, of course, is the way it should be ;D. So I can't complain too much... I'd also like to attract more dentists. This can be a tricky business, because they can't always say what they want (due to legal reasons, and other reasons as well - for example, Gordon tells me he never reads the "support" section, because he'd feel like an intruder...). Either will do ;D Not necessarily. I don't know enough about childhood dental phobia (in the case of concerned parents). And as regards anyone who is able to give informed consent - at some level, they have to WANT to do something about their phobia, and they need to be ready. I don't think friends or relatives could help unless a person is ready anyway. What you said further down... that the information is actually quite explicit and detailed, and that dentists can provide input, thus providing the opportunity to see things from their perspective as well. And the opportunity to ask dentistry questions in a safe environment (where on other message boards, the answer might be "See a dentist"). I know that not everyone is happy with this last aspect of the board, but I like it . Plus it's got the "find or recommend a dentist" section, which is unique... Also, it's not to too serious (dental phobia is serious enough an issue as it is)!! More laid-back than other boards... I reckon that's an important aspect. And in case any fights break out, or if someone (usually me!) wants to make some "controversial" statement, there's the discussion section... All of the above! Many thanks for going to the trouble of finding out - it is much appreciated ! I do know a bit about SEO, but search engines change their MO all the time, and I didn't realize some of what you said (e. g. that number of hits can influence rankings). That's it in a nutshell!! I'm trying to think of something that's not too silly here (to give you an idea of the types of names I come up with, dentalfearcentral.com was called dentistsarepussies.org at first ;D...) Yeah, that's what I concentrated on, because it was something that didn't exist at the time. When I was looking for information (in my dental phobia days), there were two bits of information which really helped me (apart from reading other people's success stories). Firstly, a sort of "job description" page by a dentist for people who were interested in studying dentistry (it was a sort of Q&A format. One of the questions was "What do you like best about being a dentist?", and one of the answers was "Helping people overcome their understandable fears". At the time, I was convinced that all dentists are monsters, otherwise they wouldn't have chosen to be dentists, so this tiny piece of information made a huge difference). The other thing that helped was a discussion board archive (which no longer exists), where a bunch of phobics were "battling it out" with a dentist and saying some rather vile stuff about him (even though he was pretty nice about it). In my twisted logic, this helped because here were people standing up to a - in my view back then - authority figure who dare not be questioned! Obviously, I don't want mud-slinging on this board, but... it did help, lol . Anyway - enough waffle... next step is to find a memorable name (and figure out whether to go with vBulletin or Invision Power Boards...) POSTSCRIPT: I've come up with an idea of sorts... I'll drop you a PM!
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 16, 2005 9:40:37 GMT -5
Actually, most of the points on your list are pretty close to those BUPA factsheet recommendations for dealing with dental anxiety . Back to that list (incl. revisions) - you'd need to know that: (1) when you have a panic attack, they will be calm and not irritated or flustered (2) they understand that you feel seriously humiliated, ashamed and terrified by experiencing panic attacks and anxiety in front of other people (3) they will stop if you ask them to, but sometimes you're too terrified to speak or move. So you need to work out some sort of way or signal of communicating this, which your dentist will recognize (4) they will take things at your pace (5) they will explain things before and throughout any procedure, and should you panic during a procedure, stop and explain what is happening or talk until your anxiety had reduced enough to stop the panic (6) they have to be honest about things which might cause discomfort or pain and tell you beforehand, and honestly describe what's involved in any procedures (7) they need to take you seriously if you say something hurts (8) they would need to understand that something you coped well with on previous appointments might cause you to panic at other times, in which case it's back to point (5) Personally, I like it when it's edited or dumbed down, lol ;D - I can get the full version off the internet. It must be a really tough job as a dentist to know who prefers the "kiddie" version and who wants the full details. Also, dentistry jargon can be quite incomprehensible, and it can be difficult to describe something without "dumbing it down". What I'm saying is - don't be too hard on your dentist if they don't get it exactly right for you ;D. Would it have been the same if you had applied the duraphat yourself? (<-- somewhat rhetorical question)
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Post by vicki on Sept 19, 2005 3:10:37 GMT -5
And the opportunity to ask dentistry questions in a safe environment (where on other message boards, the answer might be "See a dentist" . I know that not everyone is happy with this last aspect of the board, but I like it . Forgot to mention this in the PM - although not everyone is happy with it (such as the "concerned guest" a while ago - I wonder were he went? I notice he hasn't replied!!! - exactly the type of attitude that scares people into not going!) - I think it's definately an important aspect for many people, enabling them to do their research and put their mind at ease on the internet before or after the real thing. Of course questions answered/advice given over the internet isn't a substitute for *real* advice but most people seem to realise this and it's not as if the advice is dished out 'willy nilly' by people who don't know what they're talking about. From a user's perspective, it's very obvious that the approach on this section of the board is very responsible and informative. I'm trying to think of something that's not too silly here (to give you an idea of the types of names I come up with, dentalfearcentral.com was called dentistsarepussies.org at first ;D...) ;D ;D Errr.... What kind of pussie's are we talking about here? The small, furry kind that live next door, dig up your back garden and leave messages in it, or the big stripey kind that live far far away, pacing around, growling and drooling at the sight of human flesh???!
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Post by letsconnect on Sept 19, 2005 8:06:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the great tips in your PM !! Will reply to it tonight (too much stuff to digest in one go). I think I'm too touchy about criticism... You're right, people by and large are intelligent enough to realize that they can't get definitive advice here. I now think that there is an authoritarian "doctor knows best" attitude behind those criticisms, rather than a genuine worry that people might interpret this board as a virtual dental practice. And here I was anticipating a lewd remark, lol ;D! How disappointing... . The small, furry kind of course, preferably with their claws removed .
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